Fusion 10 Pure Official Thread

Discussion in 'Home Theater Speaker Kit Information' started by tuxedocivic, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. PRODUCT PAGE: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-10.html

    FUSION 10 Pure mkii

    I'd like to thank Erich and all the people involved in designing the SEOS (zilch, Audio Josh, Coctostand, Penngray, LTD02, etc.)

    Speaker Summary

    This speaker was designed to provide high efficiency and output, while achieving linear axial and polar response, all on a reasonable budget and compact size. What does that mean? Solid HT performance in a living room friendly size on an average budget. This speaker covers all the usual requirements of someone with a normal home and income. Alternatively, it's great as a no compromise surround for those with fully dedicated, large, HTs.

    The sound is clear at low levels and when on screen action is demanding and loud. It has uniform response over a wide range of angles, both horizontal and vertical. Recommended for use with a subwoofer(s) as bass below 80hz was traded in favour of higher efficiency and output.

    FAQ

    Q. What changed in this speaker from the old version?
    A. It went from the SEOS12 to the SEOS10 to allow for a narrower cabinet. There's no significant performance difference.

    Q. What is the impedance?
    A. Nominal 8ohms.

    Q. What is the power handling?
    A. 200 watts.

    Q. What is the max peak output?
    A. 118db @ 1m. For a typical 12ft listening distance, it would be 107db, although the room would provide an apparent SPL of about 110db.

    Q. What subwoofer XO do you recommend?
    A. Start with 80hz, but I always recommend measuring the results in your room with your sub(s) and adjust from there. Less than 60hz is not recommended.

    Q. Can I make the box smaller or bigger?
    A. The net volume should be between 20 and 30L, however this woofer is quite flexible to box size changes.

    Q. What should I use to stuff the box?
    A. I prefer polyfill or insulation. Line the walls with a couple inches thick, but be careful to keep away from the port openings. It's ok if some area doesn't get covered.

    Q. Is there any way to improve the performance of this speaker with a better compression driver or woofer or cross over parts?
    A. Not without a total redesign. The performance gain would be very small. Better off going with a different speaker altogether.
     
  2. MEASUREMENTS
    A little word on measurements. It's important to understand that my measurements are taken in a nearly reflection free environment (outdoors on a tall stand) and the software is used to further remove reflections from the measurement. This provides a nearly anechoic results. It does however make the low frequencies not useful. For this, I employ other techniques. I often don't show the low frequencies because the box size can change from person to person.

    Because the measurements are reflection free, they can look quite different than room measurements often seen on forums. Please be careful when comparing the two. If someone shows a measurement of any speaker and that measurement is taken in their room, it deserves scrutiny. Room measurements are very useful, but they don't tell someone else very much about the speaker. These reflection free measurements are the way to evaluate the speaker's objective performance.

    Finally, there are many measurements one can take of a speaker. I generally show some on and off axis behavior and not much more. I may measure things like distortion for myself when designing the speaker, but they aren't very useful when making a comparison without fully understanding the measurement conditions and other aspects of the test. Usually, these detailed measurements just confuse people. So they are omitted.

    Having said the above, here are the Fusion 10 Puremeasurements for your consideration
    THESE ARE TEMPORARY, A CHANGE WAS MADE TO THE SPEAKER AND I LOST THOSE MEASUREMENTS. IT ACTUALLY MEASURES BETTER, I'LL UPDATE SOON. THANKS.

    On axis, woofer filtered, tweeter filtered.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. MORE COMING

    XO DETAILS AND INSTRUCTIONS

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    CABINET DETAILS AND INSTRUCTIONS

    General

    If you purchase the flat pack kit, you don't need to worry about this all that much. Assembly is usually a pretty smooth and easy process. If you're building your own cabinet with just the baffle, you need a final volume around 20 to 30L after bracing, ports, etc.. The ports supplied in the kit will tune the cabinet properly if you're in this range of volumes. Generally, bigger will give you lower bass with this woofer. To get a cabinet of about 30L, your box dimensions should be 12.5" wide, 20" tall, and 12" deep BEFORE you attach the front baffle. It's a good idea to make the box about 1/16" small all around, and then you can flush trim or sand the baffle flush with the box.

    I'm aware those dimensions are bigger than 30L, but the waveguide, woofer, XO, bracing, and ports all consume volume bringing it down around 30L.

    Smaller Box

    You can make the box as shallow as 9" before attaching the baffle if the small reduction in bass isn't a problem. The height and width should stay the same to properly attach the baffle. Another option is to go sealed by cutting off the ports and reducing the box height. You can do this, but you're somewhat on your own and there will be a big reduction in bass. You're better off experimenting with plugging the ports so you can open them again if you find the bass lacking.

    Stuffing

    Use fiberglass insulation or pillow polyfill to line the cabinet walls. There are other available materials such as Owens Corning 703, denim insulation, open cell foam, etc. If you're not sure, use the guts of a cheap pillow. Line it on the interior of the cab using staples or spray adhesive or some form of attachment. Keep it clear of the ports and the basket area of the woofer. You don't want any getting tangled in the woofer.

    Terminal Cups

    No need to go fancy. As long as it connects properly to the XO it'll work. Biwiring doesn't help. Speakon connectors are a good method if you're comfortable with them.

    Finishing

    Duratex is a popular method of getting a durable, black, easy finish, though you are free to finish your speaker any way you please. It's a good idea to scan some of the build threads for all kinds of DIYSoundGroup speaker builds to get an idea of finishing options. Choose a procedure that fits your tastes and skills.
     
  4. Reserved for photos.
     
  5. Tux, I am trying to come up with a tower idea with no sub. I would like to get the wg center to 35 inches. I am thinking internal dimensions of 11x39.5. 10 inch depth gets 71 L. Will your crossover work for that? What would be the best depth? Any port suggestions? What would be the expected response curve? I would like punch in the 70 to 100 hz region. Thanks
     
  6. The XO won't be affected, but the port tuning will. I could have a look and see what kind of port would work for that size box, but I'm pretty sure the ports that come in the kit wouldn't work, and the baffle only accepts those ports. Are you comfortable modifying the baffle?
     
  7. I am unsure about modifying the pre-cut baffle, but I know that what I am asking will require it. If I go this way I am going to buy a router and learn how to use it.
     
  8. Can you give me a little crossover tutorial. I think I see that the low pass is 3rd order. What does the resistor do? On the high pass I think I see a 1st order, and r2 attenuates and r3 reestablishes the circuits impedance. does r1 attenuate too? Does it matter if it is before or after the high pass filter. Is r3 value dictated by r1 and r2? And then the bypass cap is so the r1 attenuation is removed beyond some point? Thanks, Murray
     
  9. Hey, if you don't want to talk about the other stuff that is ok. But can you suggest a box and ports with emphasis at 70hz and maybe an option for best extension and flatness if it would be different. Thanks, Murray
     
  10. Murray, thanks for your questions. Sorry I didn't see your post on the 21st. I've been keeping an eye here, but I missed it somehow. I don't mind the Q's one bit.

    First, for the box, what size are you gonna go with. Will you be doing the tower thing?

    For the XO, yes third order on the woofer. The resistor damps it. Keeps it from peaking around 1khz. The tweeter circuit is 2nd order but that inductor is removable for first order. It's a fairly subtle difference. R2 and R3 attenuate the response, but R3 does help control impedance in a couple of ways. R1 helps to flatten the response. It does attenuate to achieve flattening. But it's not there to attenuate. I put it there to flatten. The bypass cap does indeed let the higher frequencies "get around" the resistor and keep the high end a little crisper. Good eye evaluating that part. Hope that helps. I'll let you know about the box once I know what kind of volume you're working with.
     
  11. I would like the components and bass goals to dictate the volume and ports. If possible I would like to have 3 bass response options. An emphasis in the 70 - 100 region, flattest & deepest to -3db, and most extension. I realize these are just models and can't take into account any room or position realities. Then I will play with dimensions and see what works. Thanks. (I've got a response in cabinetry too)
     
  12. I'll check it out and post back.
     
  13. I've attached a photo.

    Blue = 40L volume, 113cm2 port area, 6.2cm port length, 70hz tuning. (lots of midbass output, but port noise is difficult to control)

    Pink = 40L volume, 78.5cm2 port area, 26.4cm port length, 40hz tuning. (lots of extension but comes with a port resonance)

    Black = 35L volume, 78.5cm2 port area, 12.6cm port length, 55hz tuning (about 55hz F3).
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Thanks!


    What is the minimum enclosure depth you would recommend? When working out port ideas do I just need to keep the total port surface area equal to the model? Is the largest port diameter that can be accommodated always the best option? The 35L plan looks similar to the 10 Pure. What made you choose the pure design over this 35l design?
     
  15. Hi again mallen.

    For those alignments, you'd have to keep the port area the same to use that length of port. If the port area changes, then the length needs to change also. I try and use as small of a port as possible without to much port noise and also not to short of a port that a small error in length equals a huge error in tuning. It's a ballancing act.

    I choose my bass alignments based on what I actually get out of the driver in the real world, what kind of power handling I'm interested in, I usually look for lots of extension, reasonable box size, etc. It's not one thing that I try to achieve. It's a series of compromises that provide a reasonable results.

    The minimum depth only needs to provide room for the waveguide with the CD mounted. Otherwise it can be any depth you like.
     
  16. I am building a whole new 5.1 system and began reading reviews and stopping in at audio stores when I wandered[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] into DIY forums. Wow! I have been reading them for for a few months and am excited to try some builds. This is a wonderful resource and I appreciate all the time people put into this.[/font]

    [font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I listen primary to music but I like HT as well. I like to crank the system up but have been trying to show restraint to persevere hearing, so i listen a lower volumes as well.[/font] ;D

    [font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]My room is 18 x 26 with cathedral ceilings and opens to another large room. My system occupies about half of that room. 18 x 20.[/font]

    [font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Based on what I read I was all set to try the 1099s. I can wait for them to arrive though I am itching to try something.[/font]


    The DIY description for Fusion 10 seems to lend itself to music but the 1099 evaluations centered around music as much as HT.

    How would a Fusion 10 set up compare to the 1099s? Is this question too vague?

    What center would one use with the Fusion 10s?
     
  17. Hey Altheia,

    Your question isn't too vague. Sometimes it's hard for me to answer comparison questions to speakers I've never heard, like the Fusion 15 or something. But I'm very familiar with both the Fusion 10 and Cinema 1099. The 1099 is quite a step beyond the Fusion 10 in terms of ability and fidelity. It's also almost doublt the price and twice the size, so kind of expected. The 1099 is exceptionally clear and detailed with dynamic headroom that could fill a small auditorium without to much issue. More than any home listener requires, but allows the speaker to blast out loud peaks without so much as a flinch. The Fusion 10 is also very effecient and can handle amazing dynamic peaks, but with only one woofer it'll be required to use more excursion to get there. Both need subs to sound their best. Someone could use them without, but I think it would be really compromising what they're built for.

    I use music a lot to evaluate the success of the design and to refine it's accuracy. I wouldn't say one is better for HT or music. For me, it's the same. There are reasons why someone would pick the 1099 for HT over the Fusion 10, such as the option for a center, or they listen to movies louder, or they spend more money on their HT than their music listening area, etc. But these are sound quality reasons that make it better for HT. Along with music I also watch movies I'm familiar with, concert blu rays, a few TV shows on dvd, and even a few geeky sine sweeps ;)

    If you've got the Fusion 10 for L and R and can't fit another one for the center, the 1099 seems to practical choice for a center. Yes, it costs more, but the center is very important to getting a realistic movie watching experience.

    Hope that helps. And good luck with your new interest. We've all been down that path and it's a rewarding one for sure.
     
  18. I appreciate you mentioning short port length percentage change issue. It seems obvious, but when you are swimming in a new idea like speaker building common sense is hard to come by. On the area question. I am asking if I just keep the surface area(not area of the port cross section) equal to the model then all is well? Since I need to make it work in given store bought port diameters, in inches too. I guess I don't know if the ratio of cross section area to length is important too? Thanks.
     
  19. Hi Mallen,

    Man, I keep missing your posts for some reason. Sorry!

    The length is dependent on the cross sectional area. The internal surface area of the port (cross section area x length) is not related to the port tuning in any way. If you need to use a store bought port let me know what port you want to use and I can tell you how short to cut it...
     
  20. Rats. I am going to try and understand the port size and tuning relationship better before I ask more questions. Thanks.
     
  21. There are probably better explanations available, but let me get you started. The resonant frequency of the port, which defines its tuning, is based on the mass of air held within it. So basically, that's the volume, since density is pretty constant. Of course, there are other factors - you can't just define the right volume and build any port that meets that criteria. If the port is too long, there will be resonances within it producing a peak in the response within the driver's passband. If the port is too large a cross section, ...I'm not sure what happens. It's not good - I think the box no longer really contains the back wave, and you have an open baffle speaker (obviously, there will be some gray area/transitional region there). If the port is too far from circular (really thin slot ports, for example), the efficiency diminishes and the port tuning can change some I think as well, as more of the moving air within the port is slowed by "frictional"resistive forces at the margins.

    That's why a short port could be tough to tune. If half an inch is a large percentage change in the volume, you better measure carefully. (And we haven't even talked about port length correction). This also means weird things when using two ports instead of one. Best to simulate.

    Hope that helps,
    Fred
     
  22. I built a pair of Pures, and can't wait to hear them stretch their legs.
    Cannot crank the system right now due to family issues, but hopefully soon.

    They sound great at low-low/moderate volume though, the REW sweeps look good, and they look beastly in Duratex.
     
  23. You forgot your thread ;) http://www.avsforum.com/#/forumsite/3207/topics/1952217

    Can I use that photo in this thread, they look rad.
     
  24. Here is the thread at AVS, I just added 3 new/better pics on the bottom post.

    http://www.avsforum.com/forum/401-diy-sound-group-loudspeakers-subwoofers/1952217-2x-pure-10-build.html#post33226297
     
  25. I've decided on the 99 as a CC, come on Erich, get off your lazy azz and go get them in New York! ;)
     

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