HT10 vs HT12/HTM12 Center

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Michael B, Sep 11, 2020.

  1. Hey guys,

    Trying to decide between the 10" or 12" speakers.

    Main LP is about 7.5ft with another row behind that which will be elevated. The 12" speaker will just fit under the TV but will be pretty much on the floor or slightly raised but angled towards first row either way. The 10" speaker I could get about 5-6" off the ground.

    Are floor reflections something to worry about with the 12" being so close to the floor? I was really hoping to be able to use the seos15 waveguides all around but if it's at the cost of center channel performance I am not so sure.

    Thanks
     
  2. Do you have a carpet on the floor? Corners of rooms in general are bad because room mode reflection nodes tend to mathematically gather in the corners.

    My bigger concern is dialog for that second row. Human voices are centered around 1000 Hz which on these things means the woofer cone. Will you have clear line-of-sight of the woofer cone from the second row?
     
  3. Yes I have carpet on the floor.

    Second row will be lifted until clear line of sight is obtained for the center. I was worried about that as well.
     
  4. Well then you're probably doing the best you can with what you've got. If you're really worried about reflections then a shag throw rug might be in order, but it's likely not your biggest concern in the room. Given that you're elevating a row I'm going to assume this is either a dedicated room or a room with few compromises, therefore you're probably going to be slinging panels in there at some point. When you do, drop one on the floor and see if that makes an appreciable difference. Theory is no substitute for practical testing.
     
  5. Roger.

    Yes its a dedicated room. First one I've had free reign in lol. Unfortunately its almost square and has a support beam in middle of room so my first row can only go back so far and second row will be two separate chairs probably on a platform. Splitting them up allows me to clear the support beam so the two 2nd row seats don't have any obstructions from either front speaker or the tv itself.

    I will definitely be adding panels and will experiment with one on the floor if I feel I have issues or a shag rug. Had read a few forum posts on avs where some folks were absolutely against speakers that close to the floor. I just have no other option besides maybe a smaller speaker that I could lift up higher but doesn't seem like that would help me much.

    I greatly appreciate your advice.
     
  6. There's two more choices. The first is a "phantom" center which means you don't include a center channel and let the receiver work its magic. You might be surprised how well that can perform.

    Your other choice is to do what a great many of us do and have a projector and an acoustically transparent screen.

    Advantages of the AT route:
    • Almost total freedom for speaker choice
    • Almost total freedom for speaker placement
    • Left, right, and center channels are physically identical so there are no tonal shifts or compromises
    • Dialog comes where the moving face is and pans across the screen as desired
    • You can easily get up to about 120" as a 16:9 screen or 150" as a 21:9 ultra-wide

    The standard screen recipe involves tacking together a wooden frame and tacking a white layer of 4-way stretch spandex on top of a black layer of 4-way stretch spandex. Cost is approximately $200 and a Saturday.
     
  7. Phantom center would be a good experiment. My computer setup is a phantom center. Never heard one from far away though.

    You know its funny because I've been debating switching to a projector setup just to be able to have all 3 speakers in aligned. I'm still using a 60" Panasonic plasma. It's decent but figured I could upgrade to atmos and 4k at the same time.

    If I get a bigger tv it will just make my center channel situation worse unless I lift the tv up even higher. With a projection screen I get a larger screen and better tracking for sound across the screen. I should see about finding a demo room of some sort. Some people claim colors and image sharpness aren't up to the level of modern TV's so it would be cool to see what the image would look like beforehand.

    I would also have to look at models with a lense shift so I can mount the projector a little further back than the center, which has that support beam i mentioned. Seems like im a little limited on screen size unless I can get a projector further back. Still an 80-90" would be a decent jump from 60".
     
  8. Use the throw distance calculators, and be mindful that various short-throw projectors exist. I practice you should be quite able to find a projector that will do a good job with whatever size screen you want.
     
  9. How wide is your room that you can't get your speakers out from under the TV?
     
  10. Will do. Thanks
     
  11. Room is about 20x18. Tv is on the 20ft wall.

    Sorry I may have communicated poorly. My left and right speakers fit fine to the sides of the tv. The center at the moment has to go under the tv. Didn't know if having a smaller speaker sitting 4-5" off ths floor would be better than a real large speaker that's practically sitting on the floor.
     
  12. #12 marc seals, Sep 14, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
    With
    That clears things up quite a bit! I was envisioning a 7 foot wide room, lol.
    As was stated above a projector setup with an acoustically transparent screen with 3 of the HT10's or 12's would IMO be the best option.

    At your current TV height it sound like the second row of seating will need to be quite high in order for them to see over the front row and still be able to see the bottom of the screen. Lifting the existing TV up higher would help with both of your issues and is still relevant with a projector setup.
    Another option would be the HTM1010 center which would be even better if your TV was mounted higher. The HTM1010 would be the last option I would choose if you go with the projector as you would get zero benefits compared to 3 matching fronts.

    My current setup has the bottom of my 82 inch TV 38 inches from the floor and the top at 80 inches. The reason is I wanted my front 3 speakers to be as close as possible to the same height. My seating is approx 12 feet from the screen which helps. I also have the TV angled so both the bottom and top of the screen are almost equidistant at the main seating position . The extra height comes in handy when I want to recline the chair a bit.
    I will add that with your 7.5 foot distance my TV height (38") is just too high. I do think your TV could be raised to 33ish inches from the floor and still be just fine.
     

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  13. #13 Michael B, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
    I am really contemplating an AT screen now.

    My current TV is only like 20" off the floor. You are right the 2nd row will have to be raised quite a bit. Wasn't too worried as I thought about building one of those BOSS platforms for extra tactile response since the room has a concrete slab.

    I didn't even know the htm1010 center existed. Idk how I missed it but I think I would prefer a larger waveguide in the center. There will be one seat in the front row off to the side. The L&R and surrounds aren't super important for that seat but I was hoping to have the center channel at least be somewhat discernable especially dialogue.

    Getting a different tv mount so I can angle the tv while raising it is a good idea even if its until I get a projector setup. Are projectors still pretty loud? If I used one it would literally have to be right above my head.

    So you were recommending the ht10/12 over the htm? I was thinking of getting htm12 for LCR and ht10 or ht12 for my surrounds especially the rear surrounds which will be around 13ft away.
     
  14. Get what fits your space and budget, there's no wrong answer. It's not uncommon to have HT-12s or HTM-12s up front and then HT-8s or Volts for the surrounds. Some people use Volts everywhere, some people use HTs everywhere. In general people put the biggest stuff up front, but HT-8s won't be a wrong answer for LCR either. A Volt 10 makes for a lot of output given the size, but the HTs do a much better job at off-axis which is more desirable.

    My build is HTM-12s for LCR, HTM-8s for front wide, a pair of Volt 10s for Atmos, and then I'm waiting to ordered 4 more HT-8 kits minus flatpack for rear and side surrounds. That's what fits my space. Mine is a bit unusual with the front wides because I wanted front heights yet don't have space for them so wides are my next option. All the 8s either are or will be custom boxes to fit my exact needs as there aren't angled boxes and I didn't want to just hang them off the wall at an angle. The 12s are standard.
     
    marc seals likes this.
  15. Understood.

    Was hoping to build something I could utilize now and possibly take even more advantage of when I have a larger more acoustically friendly space. I know I will enjoy anything I go with.

    Thanks
     
  16. I think the HT8's would be fine at 13 feet if you are not going to listen at reference levels all the time.That said for peace of mind if you have available space and money I would go with the 10's or 12's!:D

    I have the HTM's simply because the HT's were not available at the time of purchase. The HTM1010 was not available when I bought the 1299 for my center but I have zero buyers remorse other than my wallet.

    P.S. There are 2 HT12's with flatpacks available atm!!!
     
  17. My plan was to work my way front to back in replacing speakers. My budget is definitely not endless by any means. I’ve just gotten used to being patient and spreading the purchases out. You are right ht8 would probably suffice. I like close to reference level sometimes and it depends on the movie. Now my bass preferences are another story ;). This newfound freedom of a dedicated room has me going in circles a bit trying to decide.

    That ht12 pair is really tempting for surround even if I do choose htm12 for LCR. Really like the idea of better midrange and top end of the new htm for the front at least. Wish I could get best of both worlds, 1099 midrange and htm directivity with my mlp distance.
     
  18. Lol not to throw a wrench into it but the 1099 is available atm!
     
  19. No worries at all.

    I did see that those came back in stock for a short period. Erich had steered me away from those though with my current listening distance. I had liked the idea of their superb midrange but I'm just too close with my current room.
     
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