SEOS12 with Designer12 woofer

Discussion in 'DIY Speakers and Subwoofers' started by BillWaslo, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. Quest for horn sound - Round 2

    After the failure on my LE14a, I now redo the box to 4 cu.ft by remodeling the interior therefore I should have around 3.65 cu.ft after stuffing n with all speakers in. Boxes are tuned to around 30hz with 2 3"x9" round tube. Eh....forgot to tell. I have the boxes painted white too..Pics will come soon.
    All parts are in and I'm going to put up the crossover asap. Hope to taste the goodies from this proven design.
     
  2. I have been trying to upload pics, but not successful. Hope it work this time.
     

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  3. Please help checking the crossover, thanks
     

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  4. From what I can see it looks good.
     
  5. mtg90,
    Big thanks and I'm going to put them together asap. Can't wait to have them sing for me.
     
  6. I have everything installed and they were singing late last night.
     

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  7. Re: Revised Version 2 of the SEOS12/Designer12 crossover circuit


    Bill,


    I'm getting ready to order the parts to build two pairs of these SEOS12/Designer12 speakers. I have modeled several 12" woofers, as well as the JBL LE14A in my cabinet sizes (2.25 ft³ and 3.25 ft³) and based on those simulations, I am convinced the Dayton Designer 12 is the best performing reasonably priced woofer for my application (music only, no subwoofer, no home theater).


    I have a couple questions about the crossovers. I may try to layout a PCB for these crossovers. If so, I'd like to have the option to either stuff the fixed resistors R8/R9 or the L-pad. It would be nice to make one PCB that would work with either option. If so, what L-pad should I use. Is an 8 ohm 15W L-pad like Parts Express 260-250 sufficient, or should I move up to the 50W version 260-255? I'm guessing the latter - better safe than sorry.


    Also, since the L-pad is only 8 ohms, it will look like two 4 ohm resistors when set to its midpoint. When stuffing the L-pad, should I also add a pair of 2.2 ohm resistors to make it match the two 6.2 ohm resistors in the fixed value version of the schematic?


    Concerning the power ratings of the resistors, you mentioned increasing them to 10W for high volume levels. You specifically mentioned R8 and R9, what about the other resistors. What about the two resistors in the woofer circuit, R11 and R12, would it be best to also increase them to 10W? Any feedback would be appreciated.


    Thanks,
    Kerry
     
  8. Kerry,

    if you use an actual Lpad, just put it in place of R8 and R9, no other value changes. 50w size recommended. The other resistors aren't much stressed and 5W should be fine - but 10w wouldn't hurt nor cost much more if you want, but would take more space for a bigger board.
     
  9. Bill,


    Thanks for the response. That will make my life easier. I still may put down the footprint for both the fixed value 6.2 ohm resistors and the connections for the L-pad. The L-pad is a nice option to allow end users to fine tune the speakers to their environment and taste, but it does add about $10 per crossover. So, it's nice to also offer the fixed value option.


    Yeah, there are a lot of big components in this crossover. I've been playing around with creating component footprints in ExpressPCB's free layout tool, and the PCB is getting huge. If it gets too big, and too expensive, I may just leave off the fixed value resistors and just include 3 plated through hole vias for attaching the L-pad. It's a trade off of board size/cost vs. component cost.


    Also, thank you so much for a well documented design for the Dayton Audio DS315-8 Designer Series woofer. I found this thread through a circuitous path. I was planning to build a pair of Econowave speakers, but wanted something that would sound good for music (ideally with an F3 below 40Hz) without low end support from a subwoofer and would fit in my vintage cabinets (two pairs, one ~2.25 ft³ and the other ~3.25 ft³). I also wanted to keep the budget below $100 per woofer. I'm a complete novice, but I downloaded the free beta version of WinISD and started playing around with a bunch of under $100 woofers. As soon as I entered the parameters for the DS315-8, it was clear I'd found the driver I was looking for. Problem is, there isn't a flushed out Econowave crossover for this driver and I don't really have the expertise to design and test one myself. I was all set to embark on learning PCD and getting the measurement equipment when someone pointed me to this thread. All I really want it a good sounding speaker design that will work well in my vintage cabinets. You've done all the heavy lifting. So, I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. So, thanks to designing exactly what I was looking for and sharing it in this thread!


    Kerry
     
  10. Hi all,
    I have been with my speakers for almost a week now. I tell you this is the sound I have been hunting for too long. The mids and highs are so adorable n lush on vocals. If the bass can go lower, it's certainly a killer. They are so good on percussion music n alike, bosa nova n cha cha. The cow bell just hung above you, love it. I did try some very heavy bass materials on them. They are just shy from whatever speakers that I have. I originally tune the box around 30hz with 2 3"x9" ports with 4 cu.ft interior. The bass didn't sound as deep as mentioned even with towels on the two ports.
    The bass with my two open baffle sound lot better on the same speaker location. They kick me to the back wall. Since Bill made this speaker with a seal box n I thought there must be some theory behind. Sorry I just make a guess here. Love to hear your ideas on this.
    Ryan kindly suggested me to try on the battery trick to check the woofers. I did and confirmed the polarity of the 315-8 was hooked up correct and I saw the cone of the speakers pushing outward to me.
    I would take down the drivers to check the crossover one more time and see if there is any cold joins. Pictures will be followed.
    Albert
     
  11. I took everything down and took some pictures. Please help checking the woofer department and see if there is anything wrong. Thanks
     

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  12. Albert,


    I can't read the component values in your photos, but assuming they are correct, I don't see anything obviously wrong with the woofer section of your crossovers.


    However, again without knowing the component values, something in your tweeter section doesn't look right. In Bill's schematic, resistors R8 and R9 (the two fixed values that get installed in place of the L-pad) should be identical 6.2 ohm resistors. R8 and R9 appear to be very different physically in your photos. In your photos, R8 appears to be a small brown cylindrical resistor and R9 appears as a much larger white 10W rectangular resistor. In your photos, R2 looks like it might be the same as R8 (small, brown cylindrical).


    I have no idea if this is what's causing the problems you are having, but you may want to double check the tweeter section of your crossovers - specifically the values of R8, and R2 to see if you have something swapped there. Just looking at the photos, it looks like you may have R9 and R2 swapped.


    Kerry
     
  13. Bill,


    I ordered the parts yesterday to build the first two crossovers. I'm just going to go with the L-pad instead of the two fixed resistors. I played around with component placement on a printed circuit board yesterday using the free ExpresPCB layout tool, and I believe that by moving the L-pad off the PCB and mounting it directly through the cabinet wall, I can fit everything on a 200mmx100mm PCB.


    I did some checking around and this is one of the PCB sizes supported by the SEEED Fusion low cost PCB fabrication program. That would mean much cheaper PCBs than ExpressPCB, or one of the other domestic quick turn shops. Unfortunately, it means starting over with a new layout tool. I downloaded the DesignSpark tool suite this morning and started playing around with it. It's a very powerful tool set, free and supports all the universal output formats. So, not tied to any particular PCB vendor. It also works with the ModelSource online component libraries. Unfortunately, none of the components I need are available in those libraries. Lots of little ICs and surface mount Rs, Ls and Cs, but not many big through hole components. So, I need to create all the component footprints (again) from scratch.


    The minimum PCB order from SEEED Fusion is 10 boards, and I don't really see myself ever needing more than 8. So, if you'd like, I'd be happy to send you a pair of the crossover PCBs as a token of appreciation for sharing this crossover design with the DIY community.


    Kerry
     
  14. Kerry,

    You have a pair of sharp eyes. Yeh....I purposely put some 12w mills resistors on the signal path for I believe they sound better. They are both 6.2 ohm.

    Albert
     

  15. Albert,


    Check the connections for R9 (6.2 ohm) and R2 (15 ohm). From the photos, it looks like you have them swapped. One end of R9 should connect to the R8/C2/R2 node. The other end of R9 should go to ground. R2 should be in parallel with C2 - one end to the R8/R9/C2 node and the other end to the C2/L3 node.


    Again, just looking at the photos and not being able to read the values, it looks like you have R2 installed where R9 should be and R9 installed where R2 should be.


    Kerry
     
  16. All problem has been solved and I am one happy camper now.
    The speaker gives lots of bass, kick ass bass. I did learn a lot from this built and have to thanks Bill for the design and guidance, Ryan for his patient and precious ideas.
    I know the speakers are not 100% at the moment, and I will try hard to make them the best.
    Listening impression is more then delight. Details and picture will come soon.
     
  17. Albert,


    Please post the details when you have a chance. I ordered the parts to build two of the crossovers and plan to order the woofers, compression drivers, waveguides, port tubes, etc. this weekend. I'm interested to know what you learned so I can avoid any similar problems.


    Kerry
     
  18. Well, in for for a penny, in for a pound...


    Thanks to UPS, the parts I ordered on 8/24 for the first two crossovers still haven't arrived. They were supposed to be here on Friday, but I got an email from UPS on Thursday night the the delivery had been pushed out until tomorrow (9/3). Bummer, I'd hoped they would get here in time for the 3-day weekend so I could work on the crossovers. Since I am creating all my own component footprints, I like to print out a 1:1 copy of my layout and check the fit of all parts. Guess I'll do that next weekend.


    I decided to take advantage of the Parts Express Labor Day Promo Code and ordered the drivers, port tubes, wave guides, etc. for 4 speakers, plus the parts for two more crossovers. Once everything arrives, I'll have everything I need to build four SEOS12/Designer12 speakers. Two for my upstairs system and two for my downstairs system. By ordering everything in quantities of 4, I received quantity discounts on several items, plus saved an additional $100 on the total order with the holiday promo code. The only bummer is the B&C DE250-8 compression drivers are out of stock until 9/17. Not really that big of a deal, as it will take me a while to layout the crossover PCBs, plus about a 3-4 week turn on the PCBs through the Seeed Fusion PCB program. So, it's going to be a while before I get these put together.


    Gee, I hope I like them! I'm sure I will. The Dayton Designer Series DS315-8 models extremely well in WinISD in the cabinet sizes I have. The B&C DE250 and SEOS12 are known quantities, plus Bill has obviously put a lot of work into the crossover design. The only work for me will be cutting the baffles, bracing the cabinets, installing the drivers, laying out the PCBs and assembling the crossovers.


    After "discovering" the DS315-8 Designer Series woofers in my search for "best 12" woofer under $100, I'm so glad I found this thread. I'm sure these are going to sound better than the standard Econowave design with the Dayton Classic DC305-8 woofers, the Selenium 220Ti compression drivers and the Dayton JBL clone waveguides. The woofer alone models so much better. I can't wait to get these built and give them a listen. Of course, I'll report back with many photos and my listening impressions.
     
  19. I have the speakers breaking in for over 150 hrs and they keep giving me surprise every time. Lush/smooth mids, sparkling mid-highs n kick ass bass. I can tell they will transform to another level after another 150 hrs.
     

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  20. Albert,

    Glad you are enjoying your speakers. This is very encouraging. So, what was the problem with the crossovers?
     
  21. Kerry,

    There is nothing wrong on my crossover. They work fine for me. I now put the speakers to the corners, U can see them on the photo. It makes the world of the different, and the bass comes back right away. My box is 4cu. ft., and I cut the port down to 4.5". Now the basses are faster n more precise. I love this speakers with vocals and percussion music, just sweet. Ah.....don't stop me, it's music time.

    Albert
     
  22. Albert,

    Ah... I see your're using tube amps.[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE][/size][SIZE=medium]What kind are they?[/SIZE][/size][SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [/size]What's the reason for the extension plate in front of the ports?[SIZE=medium]
    [/SIZE][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Thanks,[/font][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Roy
    [/font]
    [size=medium]
     
  23. Roy,
    Amp is 6c33c otl. The plate you see just a decoration board for better looking, I thought. The size of box is not optimal. I might make another one for the speakers.
    Albert
     
  24. OK, I've completed all the component foot prints and have been playing around with component placement. Of course, I'm starting with the inductor placement and trying to minimize the effects of inductive coupling between the five inductors.

    Here's what I currently have:

    [​IMG]

    How does that look? Any suggestions for improvement? I could grow the PCB from the current 200mm x 150mm (a little under 8" x 6" for my fellow Americans) to 200mm x 200mm, but there is plenty of room for the other components at the current size and growing the PCB would add cost. Growing the PCB would increase the spacing between L5 and L2 by about 2", but would there be any significant difference in performance by doing so?

    Thanks,
    Kerry
     
  25. Albert,

    I'm curious why you made your cabinets so large. Did you model the Dayton Designer Series 12 in WinISD (or similar)? I modeled several less than $100 woofers in WinISD before settling on the Designer 12. It thoroughly beat all other new sub-$100 woofers I modeled and also modeled better than many more expensive new 12" drivers and slightly better than the highly regarded JBL LE14A. Plus, it's available new, costs less, won't need refoamed, etc. It also fits, with the SESO12 my smaller cabinets (just barely). When modeling the Designer 12 in WinISD, it gives the smoothest response in a cabinet with a volume of 2.333 ft³ tuned to 30.80Hz- which is perfect for me as my cabinet volume will be between 2.25 and 2.5 ft³ (for the smaller set of cabinets, depending on how much internal bracing I install).

    With a 4.0 ft³ cabinet and two 3" diameter ports 4.5" in length, WinISD shows a substantial bump in the frequency response curve with greater than +3db in the 40 - 46HZ range (see plot below):

    [​IMG]

    The green curve is for your current configuration and the magenta curve is the optimal 2.333 ft³ cabinet tuned to 30.80Hz.

    If you make new cabinets, what size are you considering? I actually plan to build 4 of these (two for my upstairs system and two for the downstairs system. I am using vintage midcentury modern cabinets. So, my cabinet dimensions are fixed. The larger downstairs cabinets have a maximum volume of a little over 3.5 ft³, but I plan to make the walls and front and rear baffles double thick and add quite a bit of internal bracing to get the internal volume down to something between 2.5 and 3.0 ft³.

    Kerry
     

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