SEOS12 with Eminence 12 Pro Woofers

Discussion in 'DIY Speakers and Subwoofers' started by BillWaslo, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. Here's a versatile high sensitivity design. It works with either the Eminence DeltaLite 2512 or the Eminence Delta 12A, and can use DE250 driver or either of Erich's "clones". You can put together a remarkably high end speaker for pretty cheap. You WILL want a subwoofer with this, though (like all non-huge high sensitivity designs).

    Measurements here are with the 2512, at about a meter, indoors, on the tweeter axis, 1/6th octave smoothed. Woofer and waveguide are on the same mounting plane, so if you inset one very much, inset the other by about the same amount (or you can vary the insets to direct the vertical lobe a little).

    BTW, on these type designs I'd recommend getting the tweeters up away from furniture height for use, to minimize near reflections off of it all -- sounds better, I set mine at ear level.

    And if you aren't going to toe them in, then you probably are better off NOT making a controlled directivity waveguide speaker. Without toe-in the sweet spot will be narrower than with an omnidirectional or wide dispersion design; with toe-in toward a point in front of the center listener, sweet spot will be much wider than with other type designs. Some time I'll write up a diatribe with circles and errors showing why that is. Anyway, if someone tells you they've heard an Ewave type speaker set, but they weren't toed-in.... then they didn't hear an Ewave type speaker set!

    This version uses relatively simple crossover for me (though it has my finicky tweaks on the waveguide). Parts Express part numbers are shown on the schematic as well.
    For the 33uF capacitor, an inexpensive NP electrolytic will work fine, but if you plan to have the speaker passed down through generations of your descendents, you can use the $13 film cap instead. Use film type caps for the rest (polypropylene or Mylar/Polyester) since the values are somewhat critical.

    Horizontal Curves, 0 to 90 degrees in 7.5 degree steps:
    The dark blue trace (the 7th trace) is 45 degrees.

    Horizontal Polar Map:

    As Erich mentioned, the woofer hole was cut too low, so CTC is about an inch and half further than it has to be. Anyway, here are Vertical (Up) curves to 30degrees. Flat response is a bit narrow in the vertical, but that should be better when the drivers are moved closer together.

    Here is the on-axis response comparison using Eminence DeltaLite 2512 (red) and Eminence Delta12A (black):
  2. Hey Bwaslo. Nice job with measurements.

    But i can not see the xover pic so i would be grateful if you would upload it again.

    Once again, great work :)
  3. OK, should be there now. Somehow the picture got deleted from the Gallery (Erich, were you playing around there??)
  4. No, I haven't messed with anything here for a couple weeks.
  5. What are you getting for a box size. When I run the Dealtalite II in WinIsd I get 4.3 cubes ported. I'm really considering 2 RCF 8's side by side that gets pretty deep and only 1.6 cubes.
  6. This was done in a "test mule" box Erich made, about 2.4cubic ft sealed. As always, you can't have hi efficiency, low bass and small box all at once. That's one reason I liked Designer12, I think, bass went way down in this box.
  7. Assuming box size is not a concern, do you think a F3~80Hz is attainable with this woofer? Many like myself are putting these behind a screen wall and appearance is secondary to performance.
  8. plug it into winisd, that'll tell you. should do fine.
  9. At what frequency is the cross over point between Deltalite and B&C DE250 ?
  10. I think i'm obsessing over low end I will never use. I will always use with a sub. So is there a benefit of of f3 60 or lower if your sub crosses at 80? At first I was going to do the 8's side by side because of size limitations(height) but now I went projection so the screen will hang at 26" above the ground. Crap I just remebered I need room for the port. Maybe it will be the 8's after all
  11. I think that is what everyone is doing, that's why were all bugging Bwaslo about sensitivity. Most people want their speakers to play reference, but in doing so, you won't get the bass response without a sub. For most people it won't matter seeing as we will be using one. Though I imagine a 15" woofer like the 2226h might be a bit better at both (although pricey).
  12. Did I miss the point? I thought high sensativity gives us the dynamics. Or is it the wave guide and compression driver that give the dynamics?
  13. There's a lot going on here. IMO, Dynamics is a combination of a well built crossover, good drivers, and the proper enclosure.
    Having a speaker capable of playing REALLY loud will always sound better then one that is being stressed to do so because there are less distortions present. Headroom is always your friend.
    That's where I would say the relation to sensitivity lies. But the waveguide of course contributes to that with large directivity and increased sensitivity.

    I was just pointing out that the pro woofers were a better choice for anyone with a sub-woofer because of the headroom. Though Bwaslo's opinions on how nice the Designer12 speaker sounds have me second guessing.
  14. I havent figured out to take a screen shot in winisd pro but at about 2.3 ft3 at 35hz the dealtalite looks pretty good if I remember right f3 about 50 the dual 8's do it in 1.6ft3. Thing is the 8's are twice the price of the 12 so I'm trying to squeeze the 12 below the screen. I also was thrown off by the designer12.

    bwaslo: Does the ds12 sound better to you from 80-1000hz or does it just have more low end bass.
  15. Is it the 2512 and Pro12A or 12A? How big of a difference if there between the 3 besides the obvious price difference $150/$135/$80?
  16. Attached Files:

  17. I doubt it would be that easy. But maybe.
  18. Thanks bw. Has anyone planned to design crossovers for the SEOS 12 to work with the Dayton 10" or 12" pro drivers? I thought I read somewhere they have "erratic" FR's and need extra effort to smooth out for the LF section, if useable at all. Maybe they could be "value" builds.......
  19. bwaslo,

    could the delta 12LFA be substituted? If one were to be able to get a deal on them would they work with your crossover, or are the FR too different?
  20. sorry, no way to know without measuring. it would likely be close, but might not be.
  21. Gotcha, I contacted wayne at PI since hes used them. He said the delta 12LFA is flat +/- 1.5db to 2K. He also said the only difference between the two(12A and 12LFA) were the electromechanical properties.....(What does this mean in terms of the crossover?)

    I have a calibrated mic and REW setup so I can do limited measurments.

    • Whats the crossover point on the crossover you worked up?
    • Is there an easy way to add 1-3db more padding to the CD?
    • If I have a chance to buy them half price would they be worth the effort?
  22. Hi nottaway,

    1) about 1100Hz
    2) just change the pad components (or put an actual L-Pad in place of the components within the dashed box in the schematic)
    3) probably would be a good deal. Make sure you model the box with its T/S parameters before you cut wood
  23. Bwaslo,

    First, Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

    Hey, would you consider testing one(eminence delta 12lfa) if I ship it to you and pay return shipping? I'm sure your busy, but this might yield a design of adequate quality so others might use it.....

  24. I modeled this driver in 2.0ft^3 sealed and it looks pretty good to me. Pretty flat response and good extension. Hits xmax right about 80Hz without high pass with 125w....

    Could reduce box size a bit if excursion was a problem.....
  25. Hi. I'm saying hello to everyone. It's my first post.

    If we're talking about Eminence products, the best/flattest bandwidth is offered by Delta Pro 12A. Plus it is relaitively low powered and has rather small/light voice coil. Even better and cheaper than Delta Lite (although less bass if used w/o subs). It is used by polish hi-end company Ancient Audio.
    ( )

    Look at the graphs.

    Attached Files:

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